BTR Makutsu - Gloria Leung-Resolved by Makutsu

[HarlequinZero]

This is my very time to post here as an aggrieved party. Hopefully it will be my last. Makutsu contacted me on the 11th of January inquiring about a Grey Knights army I had for sale. After some back and forth we agreed on a price and I shipped it out. Today I received a PM asking me why there were no sprues of extra parts for an assembled squad of Grey Knight Terminators. I replied they weren't there because they weren't listed in the text description nor were they in the photographs he requested of all the parts of the army for sale. So now Makutsu is demanding, (Gloria already filed a PayPal claim for "significantly not as described,") $20 dollars from me for something I never claimed to be selling, but Gloria seems to think is common sense they would have been included even though, as I said, the sprues were neither listed in my description nor in any of the photographs of the army's contents. (I'm not sure the person I'm talking to in these messages is actually "Gloria" but maybe a son. However, a name was never listed in any of the communications except for Gloria Leung on PayPal so I will be referring to Makutsu as Gloria.)

First, a link to the trade ad, which is still active and has the pictures attached.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=185417

And now the communications, I'm using green text to denote messages from myself and blue text to denote messages from Makutsu.

Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:29 am
by Makutsu

Subject: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping

HarlequinZero wrote:
Hi all,

Had good luck moving an Ogre Kingdoms army so let's see if we can move out these Tomb Kings and Grey Knights as well!

As mentioned, I have two lots for sale today. Armies for Tomb Kings and Grey Knights. Just to be clear, yes, I live in Japan, but if you look at my feedback you'll see it's all stellar and I get everything where it's going quickly and safely. Also, these armies are for sale AS LOTS ONLY. I will not break up the army lots so please don't ask. My method of shipping is called EMS. It's through the Japanese postal service and it's roughly the equivalent of the USPS's Express Mail International. It's fully trackable via both the Japanese website AND the USPS website, the package is 100% insured, and it usually take about 7-10 days to arrive wherever you are. All of my armies include this shipping for FREE as long as you live in the US, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand. Other countries are not included as they are in different regions. This type of shipping is NOT cheap for me, (the average package costs me about $50 dollars to ship,) but it IS fast, safe, and since it's through the post office there are no brokerage fees like UPS and FedEx. And since the shipping costs are all out of pocket for me I do NOT negotiate on my asking prices. I'm offering both of these armies, (all are brand new in original packaging, just opened to look at contents except for one assembled squad as noted,) for 40% off retail and that's cheaper than any shops I'm aware of. No haggling will be engaged in. I only accept payment via PayPal and I follow the Bartertown tradition of lower rating ships first regardless of whether that is you or I.

Anyways, onto the two armies!

GW Tomb Kings army: $255, shipping included ($425 MSRP)

Battalion (old style) – $110 (old price, includes 32 skeletons, 8 skeleton cavalry, 3 skeleton chariots)
Necropolis Knight box x2 (plastic box) – $109
Warsphinx box x2 (plastic box) – $107.50
Tomb Guard x2 (plastic box) – $82.50
Liche Priest (finecast blister)– $16

GW Grey Knights army: $295 shipping included ($492.50 MSRP)

Dreadknight (plastic box) – $53.75
GK Tactical Squad x2 (plastic box) – $66
GK Terminator Squad x3 (plastic box) – $150
-One Terminator set assembled as regular GK termies, 3 force swords/storm bolters (one is squad leader), 1 force sword/psy cannon, 1 demon hammer/storm bolter, no primer or paint has been applied, pictures of the squad available upon request
Crowe (metal blister)– $19.25
Stern (metal blister)– $22.25
Draigo (metal blister)– $22.25
Jokaero (metal blister)– $13.25
Coteaz (Finecast blister) – $19.25
Forgeworld Grey Knights kits below
Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex and Retinue – $49
Land Raider Redeemer Conversion kit – $30 (note this is the conversion kit and does not include the Land Raider kit)
GK Tank Commander – $11.50
GK Land Raider Door Set 2 x2 – $36

Still selling your Grey Knights? any pics? free shipping to Canada as well?

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:19 am
by HarlequinZero

Hi,

You were the first to inquire about the GK, yes, so you get first dibs if you want them. Shipping to Canada is free and, like I said in the post, also includes tracking and insurance for the full value of the deal. I don't have any pictures right now and I'm about to head out the door to work. Everything is new in package, just opened to inspect contents, as stated except for the one box of terminators I assembled. If you really need pics I can take some when I get home in roughly 10 hours and send them along. Let me know what you want or if you have any more questions.

-Mike

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:30 am
by Makutsu

HI just relooked at it all everything seems in box didnt notice that...
seems fine still want a bit of pictures though just to make sure of things and such...
As for price are you fixed? Not trying to rip you off but everybody wants a cheaper price, if you can whats the lowest you could go?

On a side note where do you live in japan since im going to kyoto university soon just seeing where i can join the acene

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:37 am
by HarlequinZero

I'll get pictures when I get home then. Also, as stated in the ad. Shipping is going to run me roughly $50 and that is all out of my pocket so I'm not haggling on price at all. I live near Himeji which is about two hours from Kyoto by train.

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:57 am
by Makutsu

Ill wait till you send me pics beforw i decide, guess price is fair not gonna argue about it
anyways ill wait for it thanls

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:42 pm
by HarlequinZero

Sorry the pics are a little late. I got held up at work. I just posted them straight into the thread so everyone who might be interested can see them. Let me know if you're interested!

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:26 am
by Makutsu

Hey sorry for the late reply, not sure if you are still selling or not.
But yeah, I don't really need the forgeworld stuff...
If it is possible how much would it be for
Dreadknight
GK Tactical Squad x2
GK Terminator Squad x3
Stern
Draigo
Jokaero
Coteaz

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:49 am
by HarlequinZero

Without the FW kits I could do $225. That still includes shipping.

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:30 am
by Makutsu

So $225 would be for what?
Everything except Forgeworld w/ or without Stern?
Could you send me a list?

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:04 am
by HarlequinZero

You'd be getting exactly what you asked for on your list. The discount is slightly less because you're putting me in a position where I now have to sell the other stuff seperately which means I'll be paying to ship two packages instead of one assuming I can find a buyer for the other parts.

GW Grey Knights army: $225 shipping included

Dreadknight (plastic box)
GK Tactical Squad x2 (plastic box)
GK Terminator Squad x3 (plastic box)
-One Terminator set assembled as regular GK termies, 3 force swords/storm bolters (one is squad leader), 1 force sword/psy cannon, 1 demon hammer/storm bolter, no primer or paint has been applied, pictures of the squad available upon request
Stern (metal blister)
Draigo (metal blister)
Jokaero (metal blister)
Coteaz (Finecast blister)

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:28 am
by Makutsu

Ok, so how much would it be with Crowe?

Anyways, with or without seems fine, finalize the price after seeing the addition.
Send me your paypal address after the finalization.
How would you track the shipment?
And how long do you think it would be on average?

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:06 pm
by HarlequinZero

With Crowe $235, without Crowe $225. If you can pay the funds into my PayPal account within the next two or three hours I can get the package out today as I have to ship out the Ogre Kingdoms army I sold last week. If not, I think I can probably go to the post office tomorrow, if not then Wednesday at the latest. (It's Monday afternoon here.) My shipping, as I said in the post, goes through the Japanese postal service. The tracking on the package, once the Japanese staff scan it into the system, is trackable through the Japanese website straight to your door. I know when I ship to the US the tracking also works through the USPS website as the US and Japanese postal service share info, and I know it USED to work to Canada, but I haven't shipped to Canada in about two years so I can's be 100% certain it still does. I can't imagine why it wouldn't, but I can't be sure either. That said, the Japanese postal website also has a tracking page in English so I can send you the link to that just in case the Canadian website is wonky. Also, as mentioned in the post, I insure at the full value of the package, in this case $225 w/o Crowe or $235 with Crowe, so if anything were to happen, you're totally covered. (And just to calm you, if you look at my feedback, I've never had anything happen to a package and 99% of my packages get shipped overseas.) Lastly, it usually take around 10 business days for the package to arrive. If you are OK with that my paypal email is:

PAYPAL ADDRESS EDITED OUT

Just make sure your mailing address that you want me to sent to and the mailing address on your PayPal account are the same as that enables both PayPal's seller and buyer protection programs.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:10 pm
by Makutsu

Ok, I'll do that tmr night because it's kinda late here and I have some stuff to do in the morning till evening.
I'll take Crowe as well then.
Anyways, I'll send you a message after the funds go in tommorrow.

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:16 pm
by HarlequinZero

Ok, sounds good! I'll get a box ready so the package will just need your address off the PayPal payment and then I can take it to the post office.

-Mike

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:34 am
by Makutsu

will be sending funds over soon~

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:57 am
by Makutsu

Money Sent,
Address is
306 9 Chalmers Rd, Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada L4B 3N3

THIS ADDRESS MATCHES THE PAYPAL RECEIPT WHICH I WILL INCLUDE BELOW

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:36 am
by HarlequinZero

Ok, looks good, I'll get the package boxed up and shipped out today or tomorrow at the latest.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:37 am
by Makutsu

k, just let me know

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:11 am
by Makutsu

Have the tracking number yet?
Thanks

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:21 am
by HarlequinZero

The package is going out after work today. I said I might not be able to escape before the post office closed yesterday and I couldn't thanks to a meeting running long. Today my afternoon is light so I can get to the post office no problem.

-Mike

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:12 am
by Makutsu

k, no worries ~
I know Japanese working hours are insane~

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:32 pm
by HarlequinZero

EG215538689JP

There's your tracking number. If it doesn't show up on Canada post in the next 24 hours or so let me know and I'll send you all the links and info for the Japanese Postal system's English website.

-Mike

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:39 pm
by Makutsu

ok just tracked it only the JP post office website seems working,
let you know when it arrives

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:43 pm
by HarlequinZero

Well, it will take at least 24 hours to arrive in the Canadian post system as the Japanese system and the Canadian system don't link in real time. The Japanese system send their info like once or twice a day. That's why I said wait a little while.

-Mike

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:38 am
by Makutsu

Sorry meant to type on instead of only
Anyways, yeah let you know when it arrives~

Where do you go gaming in Japan?

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:04 am
by Makutsu

Hi, where are the extra sprues for the assembled Terminators?

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:59 am
by HarlequinZero

There are none which is why I didn't list them in my ad. I said there were 5 assembled terminators and provided pictures of them and everything else in the lot. Sorry, but there were no extra sprues in my listing.

-Mike

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:07 am
by Makutsu

Well, I'm not sure what to do in this situation now...
I kinda want a partial refund...
Say $20?

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:32 am
by HarlequinZero

I'm sorry, but I listed exactly what was included and showed pictures. You're asking me for a refund for something that was at no point included in the list of items for sale. I'm not going to issue a refund for that.

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:39 am
by Makutsu

No, you listed 3 sets of terminators with 1 set assembled w/ 3 force swords/storm bolters (one is squad leader), 1 force sword/psy cannon, 1 demon hammer/storm bolter.
There was never a mention about not including the bits at all.

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:40 pm
by HarlequinZero

I listed exactly what the set included as you just, yourself, pointed out. I listed the exact armament and sent pictures showing them. There were no extra bits listed or photographed and when I get home from work I am posting you in the bad trader forum for trying to force a baseless PayPal claim on me.

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:54 pm
by Makutsu

In your listing it says "GK Terminator Squad x3 (plastic box)" I assumed there would be 3 full boxes of terminators when seeing this. Just because parts of it is assembled does not equal to it not coming with the remaining bits that were in the box.

I am not trying to rip you off, but it is in this case that your listing was not clear.

One can take a photo of a car that has missing parts and claim that since I never listed those parts being in there hence they don't have to be. That doesn't make any logical sense.

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:12 pm
by HarlequinZero

You're conveniently leaving out the part immediately after the text about the three boxes stating very clearly that one is an assembled squad. I feel I described the models more than adequately in text and photo. I do not take well to what I feel is someone trying to take advantage of me. As such I will be posting a bad trader report. This will be the first one I've posted in all my years on the site, but I'm definitely posting it because I feel I described my models in my ad and your claim is baseless.

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Re: H: TK, GK(w/FW extras) W: $$, 40% off, free shipping
Sent: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:22 pm
by Makutsu

GK Terminator Squad x3 (plastic box) – $150
-One Terminator set assembled as regular GK termies, 3 force swords/storm bolters (one is squad leader), 1 force sword/psy cannon, 1 demon hammer/storm bolter, no primer or paint has been applied, pictures of the squad available upon request

I have mentioned the load out from previous messages.
From my point of view, what I saw from that was just the description of what was assembled, what types of weapons and what condition they were in.

This is clearly a miscommunication, and I think that a partial refund is reasonable in this situation.
Feel free to post a BTR and we can have others to help resolve this situation.

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Here's the PayPal receipt. As you can see, Gloria has already put in a claim against me.

Payment Received (Unique Transaction ID # 6P600982MA056121S)


Original Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
Jan 14, 2013 Payment From Gloria Leung Held ... $235.00 USD -$9.47 USD $225.53 USD

Related Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
Jan 21, 2013 The funds are not available while this transaction is being reviewed PlacedPayPal has placed a temporary hold while we're reviewing it. We'll contact you shortly with further information.PayPal has placed a temporary hold while we're reviewing it. We'll contact you shortly with further information. Details -$235.00 USD $9.47 USD -$225.53 USD
Total: $9.47 USD -$9.47 USD $0.00 USD

Sent by:
Gloria Leung (The sender of this payment is Non-U.S. - Verified)
Buyer email:
glorialeung5@hotmail.com
Payment sent to:

PAYPAL EMAIL EDITED

Amount received:
$235.00 USD
Fee amount:
-$9.47 USD
Net amount:
$225.53 USD

Date:
Jan 14, 2013
Time:
16:54:29 PST
Status:
Held

Subject:
Purchase for Grey Knights.
Note:
Dreadknight (plastic box) GK Tactical Squad x2 (plastic box) GK Terminator Squad x3 (plastic box) Crowe (metal blister) Stern (metal blister) Draigo (metal blister) Jokaero (metal blister) Coteaz (Finecast blister)
Payment type:
Instant

[Makutsu]

First of all, when I was reading up paypal's rules it says to always open a dispute first in a case that both parties cannot agree to a settlement and then neogtiate between the 2 parties. and yes that is my mother's paypal account.

If the sprues were not included then your listing should not be:
"GK Terminator Squad x3 (plastic box) – $150
-One Terminator set assembled as regular GK termies, 3 force swords/storm bolters (one is squad leader), 1 force sword/psy cannon, 1 demon hammer/storm bolter, no primer or paint has been applied, pictures"

From what I have interpreted was that x3 plastic boxes means that there should be 3 boxes in total.
The assembled ones that were listed was the condition that they were in, such as what loadout and state of the paiting process.

As far as I have known some people do not include sprues in their pictures, at that time I didn't even think that the sprues were not going to be in there since it clearly said GK terminator squad x 3 (Plastic box).

I feel like this was miscommunication and hence a partial refund should be via negotiation.
I am freely willing to discuss about this matter.

[MagickalMemories]

Matsuku, the problem here is that you're "interpreting" what you read, rather than just read it.
If the squad was assembled and painted, would you expect bits with it? No.

He clearly stated what WAS included. Only mentioning that something is NOT included is necessary when the items not included are essential parts of the item:

All Bits are essential to Items on sprue.
Bases are essential to "complete" models.
Unused bits are not essential to assembled models.

He clearly stated what was included with the assembled models. Misunderstanding his intention is your issue.


Eric

[Imaginos]

I agree here. I've always asked with assembled models if any extra bits were included if the ad did not cover this.

[Makutsu]

First of all he did list 3 boxes in total, and 3 boxes does not equal to 5 terminators.


Take example of buying a board game, if it was listed one box set and then how is it fair if the board game didnt come with all the game pieces?

I admit that me not confirming whether or not it was included is partially my fault, hence i was opting for a negotiation.

[Makutsu]

First of all he did list 3 boxes in total, and 3 boxes does not equal to 5 terminators.

I meant 3 boxes does not equal to 2 boxes and 5 terminators

[Makutsu]

and posting my address and my mother's account out in the public when the case hasnt been resolved and that im not trying to avoid anything is extremely unfair to my side.

[imp522]

and posting my address and my mother's account out in the public when the case hasnt been resolved and that im not trying to avoid anything is extremely unfair to my side.

Nothing to do with being unfair to your side. If you read the rules for posting a BTR you'll see it's part of the requirements to post a BTR.

[Makutsu]

This rule should be mended and only allows users who do not respond to the BTR.
I request that these information are removed as I did not publicly release HarlequinZero's personal information.

Matsuku, the problem here is that you're "interpreting" what you read, rather than just read it.
If the squad was assembled and painted, would you expect bits with it? No.
He clearly stated what WAS included. Only mentioning that something is NOT included is necessary when the items not included are essential parts of the item:
All Bits are essential to Items on sprue.
Bases are essential to "complete" models.
Unused bits are not essential to assembled models.
He clearly stated what was included with the assembled models. Misunderstanding his intention is your issue.
Eric

In response to Eric.
If the squad was assembled that would be an entirely different case, and should be separated instead of putting it under the 3 boxes that was written.
Unused bits are essential to a box though.

[Makutsu]

"was just assembled"

[HarlequinZero]

I clearly stated 5 of my terminators were assembled, I listed the exact load out of equipment on them, I listed the exact state of preparation the models were in, and I provided pictures. And, if you are so exacting about the term "box" why did you not raise any concerns that there was no third "box" in my photographs and just the assembled models exactly as I listed in my trade ad? Like Eric says, I feel this misunderstanding is entirely yours and you are trying to force me to pay for your misunderstanding. There is nothing fair about that.

[Makutsu]

Can you say that 3 boxes are equal to 5 terminators + 2 boxes of a set?
I already stated that it was partially my fault for not asking if the bits were included, but that doesn't mean that your listing was 100% accurate.
The money isn't really a problem, but the fact that I am missing the bits now mean that I have to find a way to replace them.

The error of this trade was not just on my side but on both sides, I am hoping you realize that you did specify that it was 3 boxes instead of 2 and it was not a misunderstanding just because of me.

[jul]

Makutsu: you asked a lot of question about the models prior to the trade agreement. you asked for pictures of the assembled models even if HarlequinZero described them accurately.
It is fair that you recognized you made a mistake by not asking if the bitz were included. You handled the trade quite well for a new member here and it honors you. You will see that most of the trade posts here done by experienced traded like HarelquinZero and in a more general manner by people with over 50 completed trades do state if the extra bits are included in the original post or diplay them on the pictures in the same manner of the "What you see is what you get" on EBay.

Don't get me wrong, everybody does mistakes from time to time like forgetting if something that is not necessary obvious is included in the deal.

What now i personally find unfair is holding HarlequinZero responsible for a mistake/misunderstanding you made/had. Furthermore knowing quite well the price of GW products in Canada, you made a pretty decent deal, even without those bits.

Now, if you think that the deal is not what you were expecting, you can always send back the models at your expense to HarlequinZero in the same condition you received them and with the same type of service he used to shipped you the models, pending HarlequinZero accepts that option.

J

[Makutsu]

I do admit that it is somewhat of my mistake but the mistake isn't all on my side.

Just looked up the rules
"Rule 4a: You are also responsible for accurately describing all items that you are trading or selling.
That includes version, condition, assembly status, converted or not, painted or not, any missing pieces and any other information you think might be helpful. Failure to do so may result in the other party filing a Backout Trader or Bad Trader report against you. "

Again, it was stated that it was 3 box of terminators, 2 boxes were fine but the last one was not a box.
If it specifically included the clause of no extra bits included I would have been fine.

Even if it was a nice deal, it was still left out of the fact that the he did not exclude the extra bits from the box set.
How is this not part of his responsibility?

The main reason I'm not complying to this deal is because it would feel if I myself was solely responsible for this mistake, which it is not.

[Makutsu]

How about this?

Since it seems that you are more concerned about the money, and I am more concerned about the rightfulness of this incident.
If you are willing to apologize for your side of the mistake, I am willing to withdraw the dispute on paypal and approve of the funds.

I don't really want this to go on as it is just causing upsetness for both sides.
I just want to enjoy the GKs and start working on them.

If you comply to this offer, moderators please remove this post and anything that discloses my personal information.
Thanks