BTR - Dragonfangs - Resolved

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Dragonfangs ( 158 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by Dragonfangs » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:10 pm

reegsk wrote:Additionally, if you would like to purchase insurance, please contact me and send the appropriate funds by tomorrow morning. Otherwise you will have declined insurance, and will be unable to claim damages sustained in mailing.
Did you just try to shake me down for more money to make sure it's not broken?
Let me be clear. You better pack it up like a pro shipping a glass vase. I expect it in the same condition as the photos you just took.

Anything less is unacceptable

Dragonfangs ( 158 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by Dragonfangs » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:17 pm

^^^^ For the record - you gave me the right to make these damands when you charged me for the shipping.

Everyone here is watching, so don't do anything stupid and make sure it gets back to me in the same condition it is in.

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imp522 ( 712 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by imp522 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:38 pm

Thread is locked, if the OP has anything to add pm me or another staff member to unlock.
http://adventurein15mm.blogspot.com/


If you don't have your Location listed in your User Control Panel, why not take a second and update it? It will let your trading partners know where you are from the beginning.

Have you read the site rules? viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45470 If not do so.

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Ironhide ( 92 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by Ironhide » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:58 pm

reegsk wrote:I respectfully disagree, IH. I'm not holding his model hostage, I simply refuse to pay any amount, even an insignificant one, to correct Dragonfangs' mistake. Bill and I made a contract, whether verbal or written (the only reason I would say it is not "written" is that we did not, technically, sign it), and that contract is legally binding. By misrepresenting the goods he had for trade, Bill breached our contract, which thereby makes it null and void. If he is the one who violated our contract, why should I have to lose money on this travesty if I can avoid it? And be honest, IH, given his attitude and behavior, do you think I could have reasonably expected that, had I shipped things back at my cost, he would have refunded the money after the fact? He made a lie of omission, and I feel that lying to, misleading and, quite frankly, insulting trade partners really degrades the trust this site and sites like it are based on.

Bill, I resent your assertion in your PayPal note that I am a "dishonorable piece of crap". I am returning your model to you in the condition I received it, I'm just refusing to pay for it. And I cannot ship today, as I go from one job to the other on Fridays and have little time in between. I will ship tomorrow morning, which I think is fair considering that I did not receive your payment until I woke up this morning. I will post the Delivery Confirmation number in this thread upon my return. All of the pieces have been returned to the box and it has been sealed, so do not attempt to claim otherwise. Additionally, if you would like to purchase insurance, please contact me and send the appropriate funds by tomorrow morning. Otherwise you will have declined insurance, and will be unable to claim damages sustained in mailing.

Oh, and one last thing -- I need your mailing address.
If you bought something from a store (either online or brick and mortar) would you not have to pay to ship it back? Either in gas or postage? I see no difference here. You say this is a contract that is legally binding? Well, guess what? You have both violated it. Dragonfangs by misrepresentation, and you for failure to fulfill your half. It goes both ways and that is how a judge would see it.

Seriously, traders on here have realized over the years that when a trade goes bad, and models have to be returned; then people are going to take a hit. It's the cost of doing business. In the scheme of things, $4 is a small pittance to be rid of this whole fiasco.
"You can't always get what you want, but sometimes, you get what you need." - The Rolling Stones
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If you don't have your Location listed in your User Control Panel, why not take a second and update it? It will let your trading partners know where you are from the beginning.

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MagickalMemories ( 822 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by MagickalMemories » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:39 pm

I've unlocked the thread.
Not to undermine you, Imp. You did the right thing in locking it up. It's unfair, however, for staff (as a whole) to lock a thread, then turn around and make commentary that the person(s) it is pointed at have no ability to refute in kind.

So, here's the deal.
:evil:
(Wishing I had Lin's "Official" icon right now)
:evil:
Since IH made a comment directly to reegsk, I'll allow ONE MORE reply from reegsk to IH.
That's it.
Nothing else.
Period.

After that, the only updates allowed in this thread will be for reegsk to indicate in a non-inflammatory manner that the package has been shipped (providing the DC#, if desired) and by DragonFangs to indicate that it has been received (with a non-inflammatory description of the condition of the contents, if required).
If there is a problem with what is received, we will handle it from there.

I'm not kidding. I'm pissed off. The immature crap being slung around this damned thread has gone on too far.
Cut it the Hell out.
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

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Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

reegsk ( 386 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by reegsk » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:55 pm

I am far from a lawyer or law expert, but to my understanding this would qualify as a material breach of contract. I was led to believe (and this belief has been supported by the comments of two administrators) that I would be receiving a complete chariot model with all of the required parts, simply not assembled. This is not what I received. By contract law, I'm allowed to compel performance to correct the breach (which would be compelling Bill to provide the proper missing bits) or sue for damages in an amount equal to the cost of repairing the breach (in this case, $33 to buy a new chariot). Since he cannot supply the actual bits that are missing, merely replace them with incorrect ones, I can't exactly compel correction of the breach. Since I did not complete my portion of the trade (sending him the champion), I cannot sue for damages to correct the breach. Had I sent simultaneously, so he had the champion and I the chariot, I would have demanded a return of the models or monetary compensation, and would have been well within my rights to. Now, had I sent him the champion model or returned the chariot before taking action, unless I want to drive down to Florida and harass a judge about $4, I would have no recourse for compensation of a breached contract.

And I disagree with your example of buying things from a store. If you are not sent what was promised to you, due to intentional reasons (misrepresentation or inaccurate description) or unintentional reasons (fault or defect) you have legal recourse to get what you deserve, and should not have to pay any costs. I have encountered this many times. I have had several interactions with Games Workshop and Privateer Press where I have purchased their wares, and the kits (a Razorback, a Ravenwing Battalion box, a unit of Trollkin Scouts and Skaldi Bonehammer) were missing parts. Upon contacting the retailer, they corrected this breach of contract (not supplying all of the parts required for model construction) by sending me the proper materials at absolutely no cost to me. Admittedly these are unusual companies with rather generous customer service policies. But if I order a specific laptop from a website, and they send me the wrong model, you can guarantee that I would demand they send me the proper device ASAP, and I would also demand that they pay for any return costs on the incorrect one. If you buy a computer and it is defective (which I've had happen), the computer company will pay to have it sent to them to be analyzed, and then send it back (or replace it) again on their dime.

It's one thing if you get something from a company and decide you don't want it. But if it is their mistake, I can't imagine a situation where they would say, "Sorry, that's the cost of doing business", and you would have no legal recourse. I did not simply decide that I did not want the model in question. I received something that is a far cry from what was described, which constitutes a breach of contract, and gives me recourse to correct it. The $4 in shipping are the damages, and since this isn't a court of law, demanding payment up front is the only way to guarantee I will collect those damages. Is arguing over $4 really worth it? No, not really. But I made this trade on the basis of trust. This trust was violated, and I do not feel I should suffer any loss, even $4, for a mistake that is not mine.

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Ironhide ( 92 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by Ironhide » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:13 pm

Here is how I look at this:

He offered you a chariot, never said it was a Chaos Chariot. That was an assumption. Did you get a chariot? Yes. Was it what you thought it was? No. Was it what he said it was? A chariot? Yes to both.

In my opinion, he accurately described what he sent. An assumption was made, and it was wrong. You don't like it? Send the model back at your own cost. At least that is how I see it.

I'm not trying to be mean. This situation has happened to me in my trading. I got exactly what the guy describes, but it was not what a assumed it was. It was my own stupidity for not asking questions and clarifying. After all, if I were to order a cheeseburger with nothing on it, and got a hamburger patty; did I not get what I ordered?
"You can't always get what you want, but sometimes, you get what you need." - The Rolling Stones
FBI Internet Fraud Center http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/
USPS Mail Fraud http://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/forms ... laint.aspx

If you don't have your Location listed in your User Control Panel, why not take a second and update it? It will let your trading partners know where you are from the beginning.

reegsk ( 386 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by reegsk » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:07 pm

I shipped out today at 11:08 AM. I sent via First Class Parcel Post, estimated delivery date being this Tuesday. I added insurance, just to be on the safe side.

Delivery Confirmation Number:
0308 2040 0000 7812 2049

Insurance Number:
1307 2480 0001 6218 8007

I also took a few pictures of the items:

All of the items wrapped up:
Image
The unglued horse is wrapped together, as are the horse heads.

All of the items placed back into the styrofoam tray:
Image

The styrofoam tray after I used plucked army transport foam to fill the empty space:
Image

The box itself was not in the best condition, so I reinforced it with packing tape, and used paper to cover the old labels. I'll send the photos via PM to the mods and Bill, so as not to publicly disclose either of our mailing addresses.

Here's one last photo on the counter of the post office. You'll notice everything is in the same exact position as the previous photo:
Image

If it's not too unreasonable, I'd like to request that Bill also take photos of the contents after opening the package but before removing the pluck foam and bubble-wrapped items from the tray.

Lastly, the woman at the post office informed me that the zip code and address I provided was to Hollywood, Florida, as opposed to Pembroke Pines. If I recall correctly, kturock has stated that town lines and zip codes in Florida are all jumbled, so I thought this was normal (I used the exact address provided me), but worth noting here.

Dragonfangs ( 158 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by Dragonfangs » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:21 pm

The packaing is more than adequate.
I'm sure it will arrive in fine shape.
I'll update the thread when it gets here.

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MagickalMemories ( 822 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by MagickalMemories » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:38 pm

Good.
Now, please. No more posting in this thread until Dragonfangs updates.

Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

Grindar ( 114 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by Grindar » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:01 am

I know that no further posting was requested, but perhaps a sticky is in order, clarifying what should be expected when describing the condition of a model, as that seems to have been at the heart of the issue...This way, all of b-town can use the same words and know what they mean... i.e., clarifying disassembled as "no assembled parts, all original parts included, no indication of paint status."

That way bartertowners can be sure we're all speaking the same language?

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Dakkar98 ( 684 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by Dakkar98 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:53 am

Grindar,
I do not think that will come to be necessary.

If you look at the original ad, reegsk stated Exactly what he was looking for:
Wants

Warriors of Chaos

Chaos Knights (NiB or NoS)
Chaos Chariot (NiB/NoS or bare metal)
Dragonfangs responded to the ad and offered a Chaos Chariot. Because reegsk specifically stated that he was only interested in (NiB/NoS or bare metal) Dragonfangs should have let reegsk know from the very first message that the Chaos Chariot that he was offering was not exactly what he was asking for. By omission, he was not being truthful. If he had been truthful from the start then they could have hashed out exactly what the condition was and then reegsk could have made an informed decision regarding whether he wanted that item or not.

Edit- The Administration's intent has never been to micromanage people's trades - we can only write the site rules as clearly as we can and then adjudicate in situations where people's interpretations conflict. This is a situation where adjudication is required.

If you are offering an item to someone, be up front with the condition and version of it. Offer pictures, if you are able.
If you are being offered an item, ask questions to find out what version and condition it is. Ask for pictures, if they are able.
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MagickalMemories ( 822 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by MagickalMemories » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:22 am

Grindar wrote:I know that no further posting was requested, but..
But?
BUT?
Dude. There is no "BUT."
You're posting in a thread where an Admin said NOT to post. What made you think that was acceptable. Moreso that your post was OFF TOPIC!
Know what? That's rhetorical. Don't answer. I'll just get more ticked off.

Next person to post inappropriately in this thread sees a 2 week vacation. Double , if it's off topic.
No warning will be given. It will start immediately.

Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

Dragonfangs ( 158 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by Dragonfangs » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:34 am

IMO anything here not listed as NEW is; by default, clearly going to be somewhat USED
If you are going to be picky about used condition, it is your responsibility to make sure the item is in the condition you seek.

UNASSEMBLED does not imply "just this side of new" or anything of the sort.

Regardless - I have the Chariot back in the same condition it was sent in (which is 1 crew short of perfect).

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imp522 ( 712 )
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Re: BTR Dragonfangs

Post by imp522 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:42 am

Thread locked as issue is resolved. If the op has anything he needs to add, contact a staff member.
http://adventurein15mm.blogspot.com/


If you don't have your Location listed in your User Control Panel, why not take a second and update it? It will let your trading partners know where you are from the beginning.

Have you read the site rules? viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45470 If not do so.

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