BTR - getupandgo - Resolved

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VonTed ( 8 )
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BTR - getupandgo - Resolved

Post by VonTed » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:10 pm

Section 1: Introduction

Dec 13th I agreed to purchase the Flames of War US lot posted on Bartertown:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=126418

Although this link appears to have been edited to remove reference to the US lot I purchased. The original US portion is listed below.


American over $500 retail, asking $250 shipped for the lot in the US REDUCED PRICE
http://tinypic.com/r/242bj9j/7
http://tinypic.com/r/2d6s851/7
http://tinypic.com/r/2n1flvr/7
•M3 Lee, bare, assembled
•2 Tent Objective
•4 M5 Stewarts, NiP (1 opened, but all there)
•6 M3 Halftracks, assembled, bare
•3 M4 81mm mortar carriers, bare, assembled
•6 Shermans, painted or partially painted
•4 M24 Chaffee tanks, 3 painted, 1 primed
•3 M26 Pershing tanks, painted
•3 Priests, painted
•4 M12 Self-propelled 155mm artillery
•M13 Self-propelled AA (twin .50 cal)
•6 tank crew stands, primed
•3 light mortar teams, painted on small stands
•10 medium 81mm mortar stands, primed gray
•4 Heavy Chemical Mortar stands
•8 stands worth of LMGs
•4 stands worth of HMGs
•15 Command teams, 9 painted, based
•3 Observation teams, painted, 2 based
•9 Bazooka teams, painted, based
•37 infantry stands, painted, based, 2 are primed
•8 jeeps, mostly primed
•2 jeeps w/ trailers
•2 GMC 2½-ton trucks
If the tinypic links are still active you'll note that the items are all shown in foam trays, none appear to be damaged and zero mention of any damage in the text of the ad.
VonTed wrote:Argh. I can't help myself. If they are still there, $225 for the US. Asking price :)

SOunds good.

My paypal is: IDgraphics@gmail.com

Send it as a personal payment, so that I don't get hit with fees, and send your address via PM and I can get it out tomorrow if you pay today.
Thanks!
Anton[/quote]

I PayPal'd the requested amount, while also paying PayPal fees as he had asked for a total of $231.83 the same day.

Items arrived Friday, Dec 17th. So far everything is OK.

I finally begin to open box and inspect late Dec 17th, finding extensive damage I PM'd getupandgo Dec 18th.

Long story short, all I am requesting is 100% reimbursement including return shipping. He will not agree to this




Section 2: Proof


I will just post the entire PM traffic (sorry – reverse chronological order, but that is how it is displayed in Bartertown's message history). But essentially the first few PM's sum up the exchange between us:


Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:23 am
by VonTed
Well I disagree, the expectation of merchandise arriving safely is obviously implied.

I need to research the bad trader section of Bartertown, I do not beleive you are acting in good faith whatsoever and am becoming increasingly disappointed in this. I do not feel that receiving a box of largely broken items is my fault nor responsibility. You have made zero effort to resolve this satisfactorily.

getupandgo wrote:
VonTed wrote:I am willing to split shipping with you. Do you need pictures to show you that this was not packaged well, that this is in fact due to your negligence in shipping? I certainly do not feel that I should be be out any money due to this. But I am willing to split shipping to get this over in a manner I feel appropriate.



Shipping back to me is your responsibility. I'm not a store, and even most stores don't cover return shipping on items. I"m offering a full refund, which I feel is generous. Basically, you had a chance to look over the items and have decided you're not happy with them, so you're free to return them, but it's at your expense.

Please let me know when you get them out,
Thanks,
Anton

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:39 am
by getupandgo
VonTed wrote:I am willing to split shipping with you. Do you need pictures to show you that this was not packaged well, that this is in fact due to your negligence in shipping? I certainly do not feel that I should be be out any money due to this. But I am willing to split shipping to get this over in a manner I feel appropriate.



Shipping back to me is your responsibility. I'm not a store, and even most stores don't cover return shipping on items. I"m offering a full refund, which I feel is generous. Basically, you had a chance to look over the items and have decided you're not happy with them, so you're free to return them, but it's at your expense.

Please let me know when you get them out,
Thanks,
Anton

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:20 am
by VonTed
I am willing to split shipping with you. Do you need pictures to show you that this was not packaged well, that this is in fact due to your negligence in shipping? I certainly do not feel that I should be be out any money due to this. But I am willing to split shipping to get this over in a manner I feel appropriate.

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:26 pm
by getupandgo
Shipping back is your responsibility. I packed them well and shipped them to you priority with tracking at my expense, it's your obligation to do so on the return voyage if you're not happy. Please package well to ensure no further damage.

Please let me know when they get in the mail.

Thanks,
Anton
VonTed wrote:Yes I did feel I had a fair deal on these items, however I expect what I purchased to arrive in a safe manner and not have extensive damage. This is more than a few machine guns and minor repair. Not a single vehicle arrived without damage (expect those still in the battelfront packaging).

Let's be clear, I expect to fully reimbursed for what I paid including paypal fees ($231.83) which I picked up per your request and for return shipping ($ TBD). I would also expect to be reimbursed prior to shipment, just as you were.

Agreeable?

Thank you,
Ted
getupandgo wrote:Sorry, I can't do anything on this. You got a fantastic deal on it, and if you can't re-glue some machine guns and take care of minor repairs, feel free to send it back and I'll give you a refund.

My address is:
Anton Z
2420 Calumet
Houston, TX 77004

Let me know when you get it in the mail.

Thanks,
Anton

VonTed wrote:Actually they were not packaged well. The box arrived with no external damage, you can't roll up tanks, jeep and other vehicles together in thin bubble wrap and expect no damage during transit. I wouldn't carry them in my car to a game this way and expect no damage, let alone tightly packed with many other items in a small box. And piling infantry stand in ziplock bags is not safe transit as well. This is not USPS's fault, it is your method of packaging.

I would prefer to come to some equitable solution since I do rather want the minis, I just now have to spend a ton of time in repair and still not likely have all the pieces as they should be after the damage. If we cannot figure something out, then I'd expect 100% reimbursement (including paypal fees that I paid as you requested and return shipping).

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:37 pm
by VonTed
Yes I did feel I had a fair deal on these items, however I expect what I purchased to arrive in a safe manner and not have extensive damage. This is more than a few machine guns and minor repair. Not a single vehicle arrived without damage (expect those still in the battelfront packaging).

Let's be clear, I expect to fully reimbursed for what I paid including paypal fees ($231.83) which I picked up per your request and for return shipping ($ TBD). I would also expect to be reimbursed prior to shipment, just as you were.

Agreeable?

Thank you,
Ted
getupandgo wrote:Sorry, I can't do anything on this. You got a fantastic deal on it, and if you can't re-glue some machine guns and take care of minor repairs, feel free to send it back and I'll give you a refund.

My address is:
Anton Z
2420 Calumet
Houston, TX 77004

Let me know when you get it in the mail.

Thanks,
Anton

VonTed wrote:Actually they were not packaged well. The box arrived with no external damage, you can't roll up tanks, jeep and other vehicles together in thin bubble wrap and expect no damage during transit. I wouldn't carry them in my car to a game this way and expect no damage, let alone tightly packed with many other items in a small box. And piling infantry stand in ziplock bags is not safe transit as well. This is not USPS's fault, it is your method of packaging.

I would prefer to come to some equitable solution since I do rather want the minis, I just now have to spend a ton of time in repair and still not likely have all the pieces as they should be after the damage. If we cannot figure something out, then I'd expect 100% reimbursement (including paypal fees that I paid as you requested and return shipping).

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:14 pm
by getupandgo
Sorry, I can't do anything on this. You got a fantastic deal on it, and if you can't re-glue some machine guns and take care of minor repairs, feel free to send it back and I'll give you a refund.

My address is:
Anton Z
2420 Calumet
Houston, TX 77004

Let me know when you get it in the mail.

Thanks,
Anton

VonTed wrote:Actually they were not packaged well. The box arrived with no external damage, you can't roll up tanks, jeep and other vehicles together in thin bubble wrap and expect no damage during transit. I wouldn't carry them in my car to a game this way and expect no damage, let alone tightly packed with many other items in a small box. And piling infantry stand in ziplock bags is not safe transit as well. This is not USPS's fault, it is your method of packaging.

I would prefer to come to some equitable solution since I do rather want the minis, I just now have to spend a ton of time in repair and still not likely have all the pieces as they should be after the damage. If we cannot figure something out, then I'd expect 100% reimbursement (including paypal fees that I paid as you requested and return shipping).
getupandgo wrote:
VonTed wrote:I received the box with the FoW US items, this was good. However I am very disappointed on the condition upon arrival. While I have not done an inventory of what was in the box I did quickly note that there was only one tent objective and none of the foam trays pictured in the photos provided.

There was extensive damage on nearly all the vehicles and many of the infantry. Not a single jeep has its mounted MG still attached, many tanks had copulas broken off, tank barrels broken off or bent. One mortar team has lost its mortar barrel.... again I have not even really done a full inventory just a quick look late last night, but I am very disappointed of the condition of these miniatures on arrival and hope to come to some sort of arrangement. I feel receiving these in this conditional is unacceptable.


Ted,
They were all packaged well,and I can't be held accountable for mis-handling by the USPS. If you'd like to return it, that's fine.

Let me know what you'd like to do.

Anton

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:08 am
by VonTed
Actually they were not packaged well. The box arrived with no external damage, you can't roll up tanks, jeep and other vehicles together in thin bubble wrap and expect no damage during transit. I wouldn't carry them in my car to a game this way and expect no damage, let alone tightly packed with many other items in a small box. And piling infantry stand in ziplock bags is not safe transit as well. This is not USPS's fault, it is your method of packaging.

I would prefer to come to some equitable solution since I do rather want the minis, I just now have to spend a ton of time in repair and still not likely have all the pieces as they should be after the damage. If we cannot figure something out, then I'd expect 100% reimbursement (including paypal fees that I paid as you requested and return shipping).
getupandgo wrote:
VonTed wrote:I received the box with the FoW US items, this was good. However I am very disappointed on the condition upon arrival. While I have not done an inventory of what was in the box I did quickly note that there was only one tent objective and none of the foam trays pictured in the photos provided.

There was extensive damage on nearly all the vehicles and many of the infantry. Not a single jeep has its mounted MG still attached, many tanks had copulas broken off, tank barrels broken off or bent. One mortar team has lost its mortar barrel.... again I have not even really done a full inventory just a quick look late last night, but I am very disappointed of the condition of these miniatures on arrival and hope to come to some sort of arrangement. I feel receiving these in this conditional is unacceptable.


Ted,
They were all packaged well,and I can't be held accountable for mis-handling by the USPS. If you'd like to return it, that's fine.

Let me know what you'd like to do.

Anton

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:52 am
by getupandgo
VonTed wrote:I received the box with the FoW US items, this was good. However I am very disappointed on the condition upon arrival. While I have not done an inventory of what was in the box I did quickly note that there was only one tent objective and none of the foam trays pictured in the photos provided.

There was extensive damage on nearly all the vehicles and many of the infantry. Not a single jeep has its mounted MG still attached, many tanks had copulas broken off, tank barrels broken off or bent. One mortar team has lost its mortar barrel.... again I have not even really done a full inventory just a quick look late last night, but I am very disappointed of the condition of these miniatures on arrival and hope to come to some sort of arrangement. I feel receiving these in this conditional is unacceptable.


Ted,
They were all packaged well,and I can't be held accountable for mis-handling by the USPS. If you'd like to return it, that's fine.

Let me know what you'd like to do.

Anton

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:38 am
by VonTed
I received the box with the FoW US items, this was good. However I am very disappointed on the condition upon arrival. While I have not done an inventory of what was in the box I did quickly note that there was only one tent objective and none of the foam trays pictured in the photos provided.

There was extensive damage on nearly all the vehicles and many of the infantry. Not a single jeep has its mounted MG still attached, many tanks had copulas broken off, tank barrels broken off or bent. One mortar team has lost its mortar barrel.... again I have not even really done a full inventory just a quick look late last night, but I am very disappointed of the condition of these miniatures on arrival and hope to come to some sort of arrangement. I feel receiving these in this conditional is unacceptable.

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:16 am
by VonTed
Excellent, I look forward to getting it and playing with the new toys!

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:01 am
by getupandgo
VonTed wrote:

my address edited out


Payment has been sent.
Thank you,
Ted



Ted,
I'm mailing your package this morning. I added in all the extra bits I had, and some counters and other random stuff.
Enjoy it!
Anton

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:20 pm
by VonTed

my address edited out

Payment has been sent.
Thank you,
Ted

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:59 pm
by getupandgo
VonTed wrote:Argh. I can't help myself. If they are still there, $225 for the US. Asking price



SOunds good.

My paypal is: IDgraphics@gmail.com

Send it as a personal payment, so that I don't get hit with fees, and send your address via PM and I can get it out tomorrow if you pay today.
Thanks!
Anton

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:36 pm
by VonTed
Argh. I can't help myself. If they are still there, $225 for the US. Asking price

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:13 am
by VonTed
Fair enough, thanks.

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:03 am
by getupandgo
VonTed wrote:Wow, I had no idea the 6mm were that expensive. I was guessing more like $20-30!

I guess I am having a difficult time talking myself into the US force since I actually don't play all that much. So... I can talk myself in to for $200, my comfort zone I guess - this would end up being my Christmas present.

If you don't want to sell for that I understand, my offer stands for a couple days.

Thank you,
Ted


Hey Ted,
They're already well under half off, and I have 2 other parties who have contacted me about them, so I'm guessing that they'll probably take it at my asking price. If those fall through, I'll get in touch.
ANton

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:54 am
by VonTed
Wow, I had no idea the 6mm were that expensive. I was guessing more like $20-30!

I guess I am having a difficult time talking myself into the US force since I actually don't play all that much. So... I can talk myself in to for $200, my comfort zone I guess - this would end up being my Christmas present.

If you don't want to sell for that I understand, my offer stands for a couple days.

Thank you,
Ted

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:00 pm
by getupandgo
VonTed wrote:Toss in the 6mm buildings for $225?


The 6mm buildings retail for right around $300 total... sorry, no can do.

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:03 pm
by VonTed
Toss in the 6mm buildings for $225?

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:39 pm
by getupandgo
VonTed wrote:How about $200 shipped, I can PayPal you today.


I just lowered the price, so it's firm for now. I have some other interest in the americans, so if you do want them, let me know asap.

Thanks!
Anton

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:11 pm
by VonTed
How about $200 shipped, I can PayPal you today.

Quote getupandgo
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:04 pm
by getupandgo
VonTed wrote:Subject: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more


I am thinking I may be interested in US forces, what mfg are they? Are they all Battlefront, Flames of War minis? Or are others in there as well?

Thank you,
Ted


Hey Ted,
Yes, they're all battlefront... Let me know if you'd like to buy it.
Anton

Quote VonTed
Re: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more
Sent: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:19 am
by VonTed
Subject: Selling Flames of War British and U.S. lots cheap. +more


I am thinking I may be interested in US forces, what mfg are they? Are they all Battlefront, Flames of War minis? Or are others in there as well?

Thank you,
Ted




Pics of items on delivery

http://tinypic.com/r/aa9lbl/7
http://tinypic.com/r/20b1ix0/7
http://tinypic.com/r/24mi97k/7
http://tinypic.com/r/2rei54w/7
http://tinypic.com/r/2v80gmg/7

I was expecting them to arrive safely and rather expected them to arrive in the foam trays they were advertised in.


Section 3: Supporting Information

No real additional information other than listed above.



Section 4: Follow Through

I've tried repeated to come to what I believe a fair result is. What I really wanted was some compensation for the highly damaged minis, and the foam trays they were listed with. I never even completed the inventory of the items to check for completeness, once I saw the damage I stopped opening bags.

What I want to settle for is $231.83 + return shipping. Refund prior to return shipping to ensure good faith (perhaps 50/50 before/after shipping). Not outrageous I think.

Thank you,
VonTed

getupandgo ( 778 )
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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by getupandgo » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:44 pm

This is total BS.

There is little to no damage, and the OP is using this as an attempt to get a discount after receiving the items in what appears to be acceptable condition based on his pictures.

I call this a case of "sour grapes" on behalf of the OP.

The pictures show little to no damage, the box was well packed with bubble wrap and peanuts, and I offered a full refund as long as he paid for return shipping. I'm not going to eat that expense.

I feel that I'm being fair and reasonable. I'm out shipping to him, he's out shipping back.

Had i shipped him a box with no packing materials and stuff was actually damaged, then it would be my obligation, but what I see are a few stands of infantry that need to be re-glued, and a few tracks and wheels to halftracks that were never on the vehicles, they just need to be glued on.

I feel that this is an attempt extort a little extra money out of me... My offer of letting him return it for a full refund stands. if they are in such bad shape (which they don't appear to be by my standards) then he's welcome to take me up on it.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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MagickalMemories ( 822 )
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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by MagickalMemories » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:28 pm

Okay.
First, the facts, then my opinion:

1)
You aren't entitled to anything for the missing trays. Nowhere in the listing did it say the trays were included. You made a presumption, based on the images. He just happened to have photographed them while in trays.
Had the listing specified that the trays were included, this would be different.

2)
Bartertown has no rules regarding the specifics of (a) who has to pay the return shipping or (b) who ships/pays in what order. That is left up for the traders involved to decide.


Opinions:
Re: #2 above... Good luck getting GUAG to pay first. He currently has a rating of nearly 700, and you have a 2. He's established that, regardless of packing errors, he isn't out to rip people off. You haven't done that yet (no offense intended).

1)
If the infantry and stuff were stuffed into ziplocs... that truly is bad packing. GUAG, if you and I traded something like this, I'd be angry at the ziplocs, too. The damage to the stuff in ziplocs would be far less likely, had you packed them differently. If this is how you're going to package something, it should be mentioned up front, so as to eliminate unhappy surprises and give your trade partner the chance to opt out.

2)
VonTed, you need some better images to support your claims. While your images DO support bad packing (on the infantry, at least), there are a few problems:
First off, we can't see what's in the baggies. Take this image, for example:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=aa9lbl&s=7

For all we know, it could just be the few, top stands that have had models come off. We can't tell.
Secondly, you showed images of vehicles that, to those of us who don't play the game, look to have only come unglued. I can't think of ANYONE who's going to give you recompense for having to reglue something that just came apart.
Thirdly, some of these images... I just can't tell what the damage is supposed to be. Those painted tanks, for example. On most of them, I just don't know what the problem is. You also seem to be complaining about some pieces that simply were never glued on.

3)
IMO, you should let your trade partner know you intend on filing a BTR and give them one last chance to "make things right" before actually filing that report. This whole thing's taken about a week. It seems like a kind of quick jump from arguing to BTR. That's just me, though. Fact is that the BTR *does* meet posting requirements.


IMO, you guys both need to man up, give in a little somewhere, and recitfy it privately.


On an official note:
Thank you guys for not getting p!ssy with each other.
Please, keep it that way and keep trying to figure something out.


Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

getupandgo ( 778 )
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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by getupandgo » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:46 pm

The infantry was packed in zip lock bags, but it was surrounded by bubble wrap and peanuts. It's not as if I just threw zip lock bags in a box with nothing around them.

Again; I'm simply not seeing this "extensive" damage that VonTed is claiming. I think this is a blatant attempt to get a better deal on something that was already negotiated and worked out, or perhaps a case of "sour grapes".

Please note that when he received the package, he didn't indicate that he wanted to return them, that was my idea. He stated that he wanted some "consideration". The way that this has played out, I basically take that as an attempt to get a better deal, and that's all this amounts to.

The models in all the pictures sans the 2 infantry stands are not broken. The two infantry models that came unglued can easily be re-glued. Feel free to get the opinions of other Flames of War players and ask them if I'm not correct in that statement.

From my experience, the condition of the models is typical of packages I've received on a regular basis, and not complained about. It's the nature of buying and selling used models. I'm not going to offer any sort of consideration for bent gun barrels or glue that came loose during shipping. That's ridiculous.

Upon further review of the pictures, unless VonTed can come up with specifics with pictures of exactly what was damaged, I'm going to have to say that he's responsible for gluing the few models and keeping them at this point.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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Ironhide ( 92 )
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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by Ironhide » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:02 am

It's my opinion the VonTed thought he was going to receive an Army that could be playable right out of the package. All he would have to do is pop them out of the package, put them on the table, and play.

First, I have seen these models by the way, and shipping those tanks the way shown is a sure fire way of having the main guns on the tank breaking off.

Second, I also have to disagree with MM on the foam trays. If the models are shown in the foam trays, then I would think that is how they were coming to me.

Third, I'd like to point out this:
If the items arrive in a different condition than what they were promised (ie damaged or pieces missing),
This is from the BTR rules.

Fourth, the user ratings do not count in this. What counts is whether or not the person filing the BTR has followed the rules, and from the wording of the above; he has a valid complaint.
"You can't always get what you want, but sometimes, you get what you need." - The Rolling Stones
FBI Internet Fraud Center http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/
USPS Mail Fraud http://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/forms ... laint.aspx

If you don't have your Location listed in your User Control Panel, why not take a second and update it? It will let your trading partners know where you are from the beginning.

getupandgo ( 778 )
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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by getupandgo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:12 pm

Ironhide wrote:It's my opinion the VonTed thought he was going to receive an Army that could be playable right out of the package. All he would have to do is pop them out of the package, put them on the table, and play.

First, I have seen these models by the way, and shipping those tanks the way shown is a sure fire way of having the main guns on the tank breaking off.

Second, I also have to disagree with MM on the foam trays. If the models are shown in the foam trays, then I would think that is how they were coming to me.

Third, I'd like to point out this:
If the items arrive in a different condition than what they were promised (ie damaged or pieces missing),
This is from the BTR rules.

Fourth, the user ratings do not count in this. What counts is whether or not the person filing the BTR has followed the rules, and from the wording of the above; he has a valid complaint.

I agree that my user rating doesn't matter in regards to the complaint, but MM was responding in regards to me paying him a refund before he shipped the items back. Not that it matters, as VonTed has read 2 PMs from me and not responded. From where I stand, it definitely looks like he was playing games by posting this BTR, which was my initial thought.

I never intended to include the foam, and didn't include it in my list of things included in the lot. If he had specifically asked about it, I would have told him it wasn't included, as it would have required a much larger box, and a lot more cost in shipping (shipping was included in the lot). Now, I can understand that might be a sticking point, and I'd have been willing to deal with that, and perhaps offer it to him for the cost of shipping it to him.

In regards to the rest; the tanks were all wrapped in bubble wrap, and I can't see any sort of damage that they incurred during shipping other than perhaps a bent gun barrel.

Again; I'm not going to offer someone monetary compensation for a bent gun barrel on something that was damaged during shipping. I can offer an apology, but beyond that, it's something that wasn't a result of negligence on my part.

I guess I'm feeling rather defensive about this, and I apologize if my tone is harsh, but I have always made sales (or trades) right if I made a mistake with something. In this case, I really don't feel I made a mistake with the shipping methods. Now, if VonTed wants to respond to my PMs, or talk about the foam, then we can work something out, but his pictures and his description of the damage don't add up. I'm not seeing "extensive damage on nearly all the vehicles and many of the infantry". I think that's a blatant exaggeration.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by VonTed » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:16 pm

UPDATE 12/20/10

I was PM'd this yesterday (12/19/10), I am obviously at a loss to know what to do here. I believe I have acted in good faith, I bought a large amount of miniatures and promptly paid. Upon arrival I noted the damage and contacted the seller, who now refuses to deal with me.


getupandgo wrote:You know what... after looking at the pictures again, it's even MORE obvious that you're just trying to extort me into giving you a discount on stuff that's clearly not damaged.

Consider the offer to send it back rescinded, as it all got to you in good condition, and you were clearly making up stories about all the vehicles being damaged.

As far as I'm concerned, that qualifies you for negative feedback, and I definitely won't ever deal with you again. You buy something at a great price, and try to negotiate after you get the items in good shape.

Furthermore; we never discussed foam, and sending that would have upped the delivery price by $15-20. You didn't ask about it, and it wasn't listed as included in the list of things I sent you.

I also sent you a good $50 worth of extra stuff in terms of counters and a bag of extra bits.

You are out to try to juice me for something extra above and beyond the great deal you already got, and I've gotten several PMs from long-time traders who agree with me on this.

You're looking to take advantage of me and quite simply, it's not going to happen.

Take care,
Anton





Some additional pics of items. I cannot fathom how the numerous items damaged are seen as “little or no damage”.

http://tinypic.com/r/1zci981/7 shows broken cupola, MG's (I think should be there) and 2-3 missing crewmen poking out of cupola
http://tinypic.com/r/3150if9/7 shows every single half track (sold as assembled) showing that none are assembled, tracks, bumper, hardware all have broken off
http://tinypic.com/r/j9y25k/7 shows same issue with artillery
http://tinypic.com/r/205zgbn/7 shows infantry removed from plastic bag used for shipping and infantry broken off
http://tinypic.com/r/330qxlk/7 shows mortar team, only problem is one mortar tube missing and I cannot find it any other bags
http://tinypic.com/r/314ay3t/7 tank, unassembled – however I cannot locate missing gun barrel
http://tinypic.com/r/apg32o/7 shows second set of infantry removed from plastic bag used for shipping and infantry broken off
http://tinypic.com/r/b8pz41/7 just a close up of the care these were packed with, note one man doing the limbo
http://tinypic.com/r/200yxz9/7 shows third set of infantry removed from plastic bag used for shipping and infantry broken off
http://tinypic.com/r/k2d0ra/7 shows jeep, every MG is broken off (I did find these in another bag)
http://tinypic.com/r/2h52uy9/7 close up of jeep, driver broke off with rear of seat and door edge snapped off as well



I concede he did not mention the foam trays, I assumed that since all the miniatures were pictures sitting in them, they would be delivered that way. Bad assumption on my part. Probably would have largely mitigated shipping damage.


I have noticed that there is only one “tent objective” included, when listed is “•2 Tent Objective”, so I am assuming that one objective is missing. I can only find 7 of the 8 listed jeeps and I also cannot locate one tank gun barrel, and one mortar barrel, and I have not even begun to figure out if all the pieces that fell, broke slipped, or snapped off are 100% included somewhere.

I do feel that I got a good deal on the purchase – if they arrived in good condition. A few instances of bent figures or gun barrels is one thing, a couple infantry stands with men popped off is expected. But the extent of the problem is troubling. I am most troubled that he takes zero responsibility for improper packaging, leading to delivery of damaged items. I am not trying to take advantage of anyone here – I did not receive what I thought I would: few missing items (tenet objective and jeep being the main ones) and the extensively damaged material.

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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by getupandgo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:07 pm

VonTed wrote:UPDATE 12/20/10

I was PM'd this yesterday (12/19/10), I am obviously at a loss to know what to do here. I believe I have acted in good faith, I bought a large amount of miniatures and promptly paid. Upon arrival I noted the damage and contacted the seller, who now refuses to deal with me.


getupandgo wrote:You know what... after looking at the pictures again, it's even MORE obvious that you're just trying to extort me into giving you a discount on stuff that's clearly not damaged.

Consider the offer to send it back rescinded, as it all got to you in good condition, and you were clearly making up stories about all the vehicles being damaged.

As far as I'm concerned, that qualifies you for negative feedback, and I definitely won't ever deal with you again. You buy something at a great price, and try to negotiate after you get the items in good shape.

Furthermore; we never discussed foam, and sending that would have upped the delivery price by $15-20. You didn't ask about it, and it wasn't listed as included in the list of things I sent you.

I also sent you a good $50 worth of extra stuff in terms of counters and a bag of extra bits.

You are out to try to juice me for something extra above and beyond the great deal you already got, and I've gotten several PMs from long-time traders who agree with me on this.

You're looking to take advantage of me and quite simply, it's not going to happen.

Take care,
Anton





Some additional pics of items. I cannot fathom how the numerous items damaged are seen as “little or no damage”.

http://tinypic.com/r/1zci981/7 shows broken cupola, MG's (I think should be there) and 2-3 missing crewmen poking out of cupola
http://tinypic.com/r/3150if9/7 shows every single half track (sold as assembled) showing that none are assembled, tracks, bumper, hardware all have broken off
http://tinypic.com/r/j9y25k/7 shows same issue with artillery
http://tinypic.com/r/205zgbn/7 shows infantry removed from plastic bag used for shipping and infantry broken off
http://tinypic.com/r/330qxlk/7 shows mortar team, only problem is one mortar tube missing and I cannot find it any other bags
http://tinypic.com/r/314ay3t/7 tank, unassembled – however I cannot locate missing gun barrel
http://tinypic.com/r/apg32o/7 shows second set of infantry removed from plastic bag used for shipping and infantry broken off
http://tinypic.com/r/b8pz41/7 just a close up of the care these were packed with, note one man doing the limbo
http://tinypic.com/r/200yxz9/7 shows third set of infantry removed from plastic bag used for shipping and infantry broken off
http://tinypic.com/r/k2d0ra/7 shows jeep, every MG is broken off (I did find these in another bag)
http://tinypic.com/r/2h52uy9/7 close up of jeep, driver broke off with rear of seat and door edge snapped off as well



I concede he did not mention the foam trays, I assumed that since all the miniatures were pictures sitting in them, they would be delivered that way. Bad assumption on my part. Probably would have largely mitigated shipping damage.


I have noticed that there is only one “tent objective” included, when listed is “•2 Tent Objective”, so I am assuming that one objective is missing. I can only find 7 of the 8 listed jeeps and I also cannot locate one tank gun barrel, and one mortar barrel, and I have not even begun to figure out if all the pieces that fell, broke slipped, or snapped off are 100% included somewhere.

I do feel that I got a good deal on the purchase – if they arrived in good condition. A few instances of bent figures or gun barrels is one thing, a couple infantry stands with men popped off is expected. But the extent of the problem is troubling. I am most troubled that he takes zero responsibility for improper packaging, leading to delivery of damaged items. I am not trying to take advantage of anyone here – I did not receive what I thought I would: few missing items (tenet objective and jeep being the main ones) and the extensively damaged material.
Ok Ted, now I've caught you in a blatant lie.

This picture:
http://tinypic.com/r/314ay3t/7 tank, unassembled – however I cannot locate missing gun barrel
Was one of the Stewarts that was New in package when it was sent, and you even confirmed that you revived them in that condition

You are attempting to imply that it's missing pieces after YOU removed it from it's new in package condition.

I feel that's dishonest, and if you're willing to do that to prove your point, who knows how many infantry models you'd remove from their bases to make it appear that they're damaged. I noticed that there are laying down infantry that are off their bases. From my experiences with gluing models with that big of a footprint, they wouldn't come off unless you pried them. Now, perhaps I'm incorrect, but based on the patently false statement that I didn't include a gun barrel from a model that was new in package when it was sent to you, I think you're making some things up here, and I'm not willing to do much for someone who's trying to deceive me purposefully.

I guess I'll have to leave this up to a neutral third party to decide, but removing something from it's package and then claiming that I didn't include a piece is a LIE, and I really don't appreciate it.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by VonTed » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:47 pm

Actually that was a tank in a baggie, I have opened none of the items from their blisters.

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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by getupandgo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:51 pm

VonTed wrote:Actually that was a tank in a baggie, I have opened none of the items from their blisters.
Can you post pictures of all the models still in their blisters then?
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by VonTed » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:18 pm

Here you go. I don't appreciate being called a liar, I find it amazing you can't see the damage done and accept the possibility that I am not lying or trying to scam you.

http://tinypic.com/r/285x0w/7
http://tinypic.com/r/axzn8y/7
http://tinypic.com/r/ixayow/7

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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by VonTed » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:21 pm


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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by getupandgo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:25 pm

VonTed wrote:Here you go. I don't appreciate being called a liar, I find it amazing you can't see the damage done and accept the possibility that I am not lying or trying to scam you.

http://tinypic.com/r/285x0w/7
http://tinypic.com/r/axzn8y/7
http://tinypic.com/r/ixayow/7
Why are the tops of the blisters missing? I can't see what they are very well from the pictures, and when they were sent to you they had a complete blister pack, including the tops. Please let me know about that.

There are a lot of things here that don't add up, and I'm making a list of them to present.

I'm going to be stepping away from this for the rest of the day, because I'm very hot under the collar about this and I'm about to say a bunch of things that I will probably regret or have to apologize for.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by Ironhide » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:36 pm

Ok, these pieces are small, so a picture from 3-4 feet away just ain't gonna cut it. I suggest you take an overall picture of everything and then do close-ups of sections that actually allow someone to see what is there. I can barely make out some of the pieces. And do not move pieces around when you do this. I'd also like to see pictures of the box they came in.

And let's stop the accusations without first seeing proof. That goes to both sides.
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Re: BTR - getupandgo (perhaps bad feedback) -long

Post by VonTed » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:57 pm

Close up of the blisters, from multiple angles.
http://tinypic.com/r/2dbqvkn/7
http://tinypic.com/r/2m630us/7
http://tinypic.com/r/1z6ts0o/7
http://tinypic.com/r/9quyk3/7


Is this really necessary? This is pretty much coming down to:

(a) I maliciously broke over $200 miniatures (or a significant part of them) with the sole purpose of scamming someone on internet out of a few dollars. Following up by lying about the damage and then either breaking more items and subsequently trying to cover it up, evidently by cleverly reassembling opened FoW blisters while taking photographs of the whole thing.

or

(b) they were packed inappropriately and were damaged during transit

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